Note: This is the first in a new series of interviews for Mississippi Today Ideas about the city of Jackson and its future. Check out Mississippi Today’s complete Jackson coverage at this link.
Former Jackson Mayor Harvey Johnson recalls a moment in the early 2000s when he was stopped by a man about the Olympic cycling T-shirt he had on.
The man wondered if Johnson was an enthusiast. The mayor shared that Jackson was actually a site of Olympic cycling trials in 2000.
The man was indignant. “With these streets? Are you kidding me?” he asked.
He had no historic knowledge, Johnson thought, “his understanding is here and now.”
“It pains me for people to use this current lens to define the city,” Johnson said. “… There’s a lot of things that stuck with me about how people throw shade, to use a current term.”
Johnson was Jackson’s first Black mayor, elected in 1997. He served until 2005, then again from 2009-2013. He was defeated by Chokwe Lumumba Sr. in 2013.
This week, after Mississippi Today announced it is hiring a team of reporters to cover the capital city, we asked Johnson to reflect on his time in office, on the upcoming municipal elections, and on the future of the city.
Read Mississippi Today’s conversation with Johnson on Feb. 12 below, edited for length and clarity.
Mississippi Today: How do you reflect on Jackson’s strides in the past 12 years since you last left office?
Johnson: Well, you know, I’m noticing like everyone else that we’ve lost some population. We’ve lost some of our tax base. I’m noticing that our loss has been the gain in suburban communities, especially in terms of retail. Healthcare, too, I mean, we’ve seen our major healthcare providers, our hospitals set up branches outside of the city. So that’s a little concerning.
But you know, Jackson is going the way of a lot of central cities. We’ve just been behind the curve, in that regard, because a lot of central cities across the country are now coming back. Detroit, of course, is sort of the poster child for that. So it’s just a matter of time, in my opinion, before we see a resurgence here in the city of Jackson, and so as I reflect on some of the decline in the city, I’m hopeful that we will rebound at some point.
The analogy that I like to make, that I can’t say that I have ownership of, is that Jackson is the trunk of the tree. And so if the trunk of the tree dies, all of the branches will die. So no matter how much suburban communities are flourishing right now, I don’t think any of us, whether you live in the city of Jackson or anywhere in the metro area, can afford to let the trunk of the tree die.
MT: Give me your perspective on state takeover efforts. In some cases, the story is about outsiders wresting assets away from the city, but in others, it’s about saving a failing city service.
Johnson: Yeah, you know, I hear that. And I also heard that one state leader said at the time of that failing water system, I guess that’s what you’re speaking of, that he could not remember any work being done on the water system since Kane Ditto left office. The implication there is that Black folks or Black leadership didn’t do anything to improve conditions of the water and sewer system, where when I was in office, the 12 years I was in office, we spent over $200 million. Only $5 million of that, by the way, came from the federal government. $6 million was a loan from the state.
So, the characterization that, “Well, we’re stepping in to save a failing, uh, system.” There was plenty of opportunity over the years for the state to provide resources to help Jackson with its water system and sewer system and it didn’t occur.
But of course, water and sewer, those systems are not the only ones that are now not in the control of people who were elected to oversee those systems. Paving streets, the 1% sales tax commission has the authority to approve all the streets that will be paved through the revenue that’s coming out of that 1% sales tax.
We now have the Capitol Police force that’s accountable to the governor ultimately and not the elected officials in the city of Jackson. We have so many things that are no longer in the control of elected officials in the city of Jackson, and it’s very disheartening. And it is in fact, in my mind, a takeover.
If, in fact, the state leaders, the Legislature, the other state leaders wanted to help the city of Jackson, the failing city of Jackson, then it should provide resources and not create institutions that duplicate services that should be provided here in the city of Jackson, like Capitol Police. The millions of dollars that are being spent there could be used by JPD to fight crime.
So there’s the 1% sales tax, the duly elected officials of the city ultimately should have ultimate say of how that money is spent. So we have a lot of indications that there is a takeover afoot. The airport is another example of that.
So I don’t buy into the argument that all of this is done out of a concern about saving a failing city. There are other ways, in my mind, that if you’re going to help the central city, there are other ways of doing it besides creating these quasi-municipal systems, even judges, the capital police, the water and sewer system. There are other, other ways of doing it besides creating these institutions, that are, in my opinion, usurping the power of not only elected officials, but also of the citizens of the city of Jackson.
MT: But there has to be accountability, right? So how do you respond to Jacksonians who have watched their public services decline and have lost faith in city leaders to fix them?
Johnson: We’re still a democracy and so if they lose faith in the elected officials, you elect new officials, officials that take their place, officials who you feel will, in fact, address the conditions that you want addressed.
You don’t have someone coming in from on high and basically taking away the authority and the control that these elected officials should be exercising. So, if I’m concerned about my street being paved, then ultimately, I can’t hold the mayor or the city council accountable, because it’s the 1% sales tax commission that is going to have to approve the street paving plan for the city of Jackson.
So the answer to that is, in a democracy, is to change those elected officials and get someone who you feel is going to help you. But we don’t have, or shouldn’t have, in our government, in our democracy, this oversight that would step in and take away powers that have been duly vested in the elected officials and the citizens through their right to vote for people who they want to represent them.
So, if you’re talking about accountability, that’s how you have accountability. Right now, the citizens don’t have any way of holding a service provider accountable, for instance, for the provision of water and sewer. If I’m not satisfied with my water or sewer bill, or that the sewer pipe has been broken in front of my house for the last six months, I can call city council, I can call the mayor all I want, but they can’t do anything about it. So they can’t be held accountable. That’s not the way the government should work.
MT: Speaking of the dilution of democracy, there are more than 50 people running for office in the upcoming city elections, which I think could be a record. What do you make of the sheer volume of candidates and what that says about where Jacksonians are at with their government?
Johnson: For someone who’s been in the political arena, who’s run for office on numerous occasions, that doesn’t concern me that you have 50 people running for office.
What it says about government is not, I guess, that concerning to me either. Apparently, all of these people feel that they have something to offer to make things better in the city of Jackson. They see that some sort of change is needed and they have the skills, the qualifications to make those changes a reality.
That’s true in some cases, and in some cases it’s not true, that they don’t have the skills and qualifications that are required, but it’s up to the voters to make that decision as to who they want to lead them. It’s not up to someone who’s outside of the city of Jackson. It’s not up to the Legislature. It’s not up to the governor. It’s up to the citizens of the city of Jackson.
So having them to vote in this upcoming election is critical. But some of them are going to be very frustrated to know that as they vote for the city council or the mayor, whomever, that those individuals, once they get in the office, are going to have their hands tied, when it comes to the provision of crucial services, like water and sewer, like street paving, and to some extent, like law enforcement and the court system.
They’re going in with the hope that they’ll be able to vote for someone to make changes in the provision of certain services, but the reality is that that authority has been stripped, has been taken away. Democracy has its limits here in the city of Jackson currently.
MT: How do you make a decision on who you want to vote for in these city elections?
Johnson: I make a decision like every other voter is going to make a decision, to look at what that person would bring to the office and whether what they bring would be in keeping with what I feel should be brought, and whether I feel that they can really make a difference in governing our city. I mean, I think that’s the calculus that most folks are going to make. Not all, but most.
Some, of course, are going to vote for people out of popularity, and maybe you know the person personally and so you discount the qualifications and all that. But for me, I think it’s very important to look at the qualifications, the skill sets that people would bring to the office and whether or not they’re going to be able to navigate the current governmental system we’re operating in, which is not, in my opinion, in some cases, constitutional.
MT: Does that person exist in these elections?
Johnson: I think that when you look at that, you view that, it’s a matter of degree. I mean, yes, people exist in this election because they have qualified to run in the election.
So it’s not like you sit on your hands and say, “Well, you know, I can’t check all the boxes on this person, so I’m gonna stay at home and not vote.” You vote for the person who you can check the most boxes on. So to answer your question, yes, that person exists in this election because the person has to exist in this election, because in our democracy, we only have those people for whom we can cast a vote. So, yes.
MT: What do you think of the idea of switching from a strong mayor-council to a council-manager form of government?
Johnson: I don’t like the idea, not just because I held a position as mayor under the strong mayor-council form of government. When I was a student of political science and of government, I had some questions about it. I’ve had a friend who has been a city manager and a county manager all over the country. I did my graduate work at Cincinnati, and the city has a city manager form of government. My thesis advisor was a former city manager. So I’m familiar with both forms of government.
I think the strong mayor form of government makes the mayor more accountable. The people have to elect the person who they feel, who they want to be the leader, not only ceremonial leader, but the leader of the city who can sort of fight their battles, can put his or her shoulder behind the plow and work for them 24/7. Not so with the city manager form of government. The city manager runs the city but he or she would also have to abide by four votes on the City Council and so that person’s allegiance is not necessarily to the voters. That person’s allegiance is to those four city council members, at least four, and I say four because that’s the majority.
So, I would prefer to have someone that I can hold accountable directly at the polling place, when I vote. And the city manager form of government doesn’t necessarily do that, in my opinion.
MT: Finish this sentence: If only Jackson could have done ___.
Johnson: Hm. Not “could have done blank,” but if only Jackson would have been allowed to protect its northern and southern boundaries through annexation, you would see an entirely different city. That’s the number one thing. You know, when I came into office, the Supreme Court de-annexed a portion of Madison County that’s now in Ridgeland, that’s now the site of the new AWS complex (Amazon Web Services, a $10 billion development).
They de-annexed Byram, which now has around 11,000 people and has a significant retail base that the residents of south Jackson are going to. Byram is closer to the residents of south Jackson, in terms of retail, than it is to north Jackson or anywhere else.
So if those annexations or de-annexations hadn’t happened, then in my opinion, it would have been a different story. If Jackson had been able to win those battles, and they were legal battles that were fought in court, then I think the situation would be different.
If you want to go back further than 10, 15 years, if you want to go back 50 years, the location of the airport had and has strong implications for the city of Jackson. And if it had been located in Hinds County, then the development pattern would have been different. Property values in Hines County would have been different.
MT: What is Jackson’s biggest opportunity?
Johnson: I think the biggest opportunity for Jackson is where it’s located. “The Crossroads of the South” used to be an old moniker, but it is, in fact, at a crossroads in terms of interstate transportation, it has an international airport. The opportunities are around its location. And as we move forward, taking advantage of tourism, heritage tourism, cultural tourism, is an opportunity for us that’s being explored. This folk festival chose Jackson as its site for the next few years, and I think that’s a good indicator that people are willing to come to our city. We need a convention center hotel. We have a convention center now. We need a hotel. And so all of these things are opportunities around where we’re located, where we’re situated.
We’re the state capital. We’re the hub of finance and healthcare in the state. And so, I think those assets would create opportunities for us.
MT: What is one thing you wish people understood about Jackson?
Johnson: I wish that people valued Jackson more. Perhaps that would come with understanding. But we’re the capital city. And we represent not only the people of Jackson, but the people of Mississippi. The Legislature is here, the Governor’s Mansion is here, our major hospitals are here, although as I said earlier, they’re venturing out into the suburbs.
We are the trunk of the tree. Jackson is the trunk of the tree. And if Jackson dies, then all of the branches will die. So there needs to be a greater appreciation, in my mind, of the value of Jackson.
I think that we’re in what many view as a very conservative state politically. I think that that conservative mindset creates an environment for people to look down their noses on Jackson, and not necessarily because Jackson is predominantly Black, but Jackson is considered an urban center in a very rural state. And so sometimes there’s no appreciation, for people who are living in a small town in north Mississippi, as to the value of the city of Jackson. And so I wish that somehow we could elevate the value of the city and the importance of it, in the minds of people across the state of Mississippi.
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